22: Intimacy after Trauma? With Grace Victory

SPEAKER_02: Hello there, you lovely listeners. Yep, you guessed it. It's me, Anna, and you're listening to It Can't Just Be Me, the podcast that gives you really solid advice on whatever dilemmas are playing on your mind. Now, this week we have a complex and nuanced dilemma around the impact that trauma can have on our ability to be intimate. It's a valuable discussion in which we talk a lot about how to heal from trauma, but we do stray into a lot of heavy topics, including abuse, domestic violence, eating disorders, anxiety, sexual assault and depression. So please consider if this is the right thing for you to listen to at the moment. As I've said, it's complex and nuanced, so let's make sure we give this the time it really deserves. Welcome back to It Can't Just Be Me. Hi, Anna. SPEAKER_01: Hey, Anna. Hey, Anna. Hi, Anna. Hey, Anna. Hi, Anna. Hi, Anna. Hi, Anna. It can't just be me who's really struggling with staying faithful. SPEAKER_03: I definitely got menopause brain. I really want children. And he doesn't. I had feelings of jealousy. It's just all around the middle. SPEAKER_05: I feel like a Teletubby. And then I hated myself for feeling that way. If you've got any advice... I would really appreciate any advice. It can't just be me. It can't just be me, right? SPEAKER_02: I'm delighted to say that my guest today is the extraordinary Grace Victory. Grace is a social media star and kind of internet big sister to her nearly 250,000 followers. She's a proud mum of two and shares beautiful and honest content about her life and her family. But if your mind is wandering towards mummy-blogger, then please think again. Because not only is Grace a mother, but she's also a survivor. Although you'll hear why she's not a fan of that term in this episode. In the early months of 2021, Grace caught Covid-19 and fought for her life in a coma following the birth of her son, Cyprus. And since starting her recovery journey, she's spoken openly about how her mind holds the scars of this trauma just as much as her body. Grace's story is one of power, resilience and strength, much like the listener who shared today's dilemma with us. So, I know that Grace will have a lot of wisdom to share. Here she is everyone, Grace Victory. Grace Victory, here you are. I'm so grateful that you've come into the studio in person because I do know that particularly being mum of two and the social media star that you are, you are literally the busiest person on the actual planet. So thank you for being here. How are you? SPEAKER_05: Thanks for having me. I'm good. I am excited to be here. Feeling a bit exhausted from motherhood, if I'm honest. SPEAKER_02: And you said when we were chatting just off mic a second ago, you were saying, I do feel a little bit rubbish today. I'm a bit hormonal, a bit exhausted. SPEAKER_05: Being a mum is just knackering. Yeah, I feel very hormonal. I think, so I'm a year postpartum and I still feel like my hormones are out of whack. And yeah, I just have these days where I just feel teary, like on edge, but I'm here, I've showed up. SPEAKER_02: You really have and thank you very much for doing that, it means a great deal to all of us so genuinely thank you for doing that. Now I know that your life has been and is exceptional. And I also know that some of it mirrors the listener dilemma that we have today. So we're delighted to have you here to offer your advice. But before we delve into that, regular listeners will know that every week I ask my guests to bring their very own it can't just be me dilemma to get our conversational juices flowing. SPEAKER_05: So what do you have for us? So it can't just be me that dyes their hair, gets a bunch of tattoos, gets a bunch of piercings as a way to feel something. Because I feel like women, we do this. Go for a breakup, you dye your hair, you go through some sort of event, you want to get a tattoo. And that's me. So I had my hair dyed a few months ago, went blonde or blonder. I had tattoos, I think three weeks ago. And at 8am this morning, I booked to have free piercings. SPEAKER_02: Okay. Ear piercings. So basically you've dyed your hair, you've gone more blonde, you've booked another tattoo. No, I've had three tattoos done. SPEAKER_05: Three more tattoos. On my fingers, I had one on my arm, and yeah, today I'm getting three ear piercings. There's something in that, I think. I think there's definitely something in that. SPEAKER_02: I can identify with that, actually, of getting the old hair dyed when you go through something. Getting a tattoo done Yes, I had a huge tattoo on my back a few years ago. I don't know what I was trying to do, actually. Do you love it? I absolutely loved it at the time, but now I look at it and I think, this looks as though somebody's just gone mad with like a sort of giant black marker on my back. So I feel as though I might need to rebook in for more tattoos as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I hear you. I don't know what it says, It's not just you, Grace. It isn't just you. So, well, thank you for filling us in on that. But let's bring our attention back to the task in hand because we do have a listener dilemma. And to help us out with this one, I'm thrilled, thrilled to welcome back to the show, the one, the only, SPN, Sam Peniel-Zencolo. SPEAKER_03: Oh, Annie, you are very kind. It's always a pleasure. SPEAKER_02: She's back in. She's back in. Now, your area of research, and I didn't know this, but I'm fascinated by this, is in post-traumatic growth. It is. Which is at the heart of our dilemma today. So not only are we getting all of your general Sam brilliance, but we're also plundering your exact area of expertise. Just out of interest, why is it that trauma was what you wanted to focus on specifically? SPEAKER_03: Well, I actually was interested in how we grow and develop through trauma. So there's lots of research on PTSD, you know, the negative effects of trauma, all of the sort of bad stuff. And there is a line of research that looks at all of the good stuff, that looks at how we can recover, how we can grow, how we can get better. That does involve also being honest about where we're at. So it's not sort of, you know, this fairy tale. It also acknowledges going through the trauma, processing the trauma, and then how we see the world after that. We go through challenges and then afterwards, can we get better? And post-traumatic growth is all about that. SPEAKER_02: How interesting. And has this been, I mean obviously you don't need to answer this if you don't want to, but is this also informed by any of your own experiences? SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean my research is actually in post-traumatic growth in new mothers because I found after having my children very difficult. You know, I was a pretty controlled person before and I felt like afterwards I was not. It really disorientated me because you're not the same afterwards. So it's certainly very personal to me. SPEAKER_02: Okay girls, so this dilemma has been emailed in from an anonymous listener. So I've asked one of the production team to read this one out and after that we'll be referring to her as Louise. So here we go. SPEAKER_04: Hi Anna. Something has bothered me for a good 10 years now and I worry it will stop me ever moving forward and having a normal relationship. I'm 30 and I'm still a virgin. I had a nasty attack when I was about 16, and it kept me away from the opposite sex for years. I'm now worried that it will never happen, and the longer it goes on, it feels like a bigger and bigger issue. I've had some counseling to deal with the trauma side of the experience, but I struggle hugely with dating and intimacy, and freeze sometimes even at a hug. I've long put this down to the trauma, but also struggle hugely with the idea of rejection. So I often bail before someone else gets the chance to. I've been hugely career focused for 10 years, and I've done really well, but I now really hate the gap in my social life. And I just worry so much that I will never meet anyone. And I worry that if I do, telling them I'm a virgin will make them run a mile. How do I move past the worries and get out there, please? Thanks. SPEAKER_02: OK. So Louise says that she was attacked when she was 16, but doesn't share any specifics. Either way, I think that we can infer from that that there was clearly substantial trauma involved. So Sam, before we really get into the nitty gritty, can you just explain from a psychotherapeutic point of view, what is trauma? SPEAKER_03: Trauma means to be wounded. So that's what the word means, you have a wound. Now we're all wounded, we all do suffer, we are all traumatised by something. We've got big T trauma and little t trauma. So big T trauma is sexual abuse, neglect, the things that are easier to identify. So those kind of things, people can come into therapy and say, this thing happened to me, or I was attacked, I was in a car crash, or I was abused. And that clearly we understand, okay, that's trauma. And other people come in and say, I do feel traumatized by other things that aren't as, inverted commas, big. But it's still a wound. It's still a wound and it's still valid. So it's when we feel wounded SPEAKER_02: But is there a difference between big T trauma and, for want of a better phrase, the everyday trauma of life? Is there a difference in how our body feels it or our mind is affected by it? SPEAKER_03: I'd say yes and no. People who've gone through big trauma, big T trauma, how we'd describe it, would often talk about having nightmares, flashbacks, constant flashbacks, inability to be in crowds. I mean, it's absolutely paralyzing for some people. other people block it out completely. So it's like a numbing effect where they just go through life, but they're not really in life. So they're not really living. So those kind of traumas, they can be very, like I say, paralyzing, but arguably other traumas, people will often talk about things that they didn't get as children. For instance, if you didn't get love, if you didn't get attention, if you didn't get those things, that is traumatizing. You know, it's not the same as being in a car crash, But it is traumatising and it impacts the way you live your life and how you deal with people and your connections. And that's actually what people talk about more often than not in therapy. The things they didn't get, the way they weren't loved, how they weren't acknowledged. And those things are also traumatising. Yeah, yeah. SPEAKER_02: And if you've experienced big T trauma, how might that manifest psychologically and physically? SPEAKER_03: Again, some people become very depressed, they don't eat or they eat too much. But again, it's that, how do we react? Drinking, socialising too much, not socialising enough. I mean, it can be quite polarised. So it can be very one or the other, I've noticed, is that people either retract, they're just in all the time, they don't want to be outside, they're so socially awkward and stressed, whereas they might not have been before. SPEAKER_02: And presumably anxiety, panic attacks, depression, rage. And the physical. SPEAKER_05: Yeah. suffer with being rigid all the time. It takes me so long to be able to relax into my body, so I always need massage by a woman because I feel safer, to try and just get me to let go of holding myself. SPEAKER_02: That's interesting. Well, according to the Mental Health Foundation, one in three adults in the UK report having experienced at least one traumatic event in their lives. So this is clearly something that affects a huge number of people. So, Grace, I mentioned earlier on that your life is exceptional. You experienced trauma when you were younger, and then you experienced horrific trauma during the pandemic following the birth of your son, Cyprus. So, can you just fill us in as much as you want to on what exactly happened to you for listeners that don't know your story? SPEAKER_05: So, I had childhood trauma. I grew up around domestic violence. A lot of men in my family life were very violent and that kind of impacted my sense of self. So, I developed eating disorders and anxiety and depression. I was going through a lot. I would say I worked really hard on myself or tried to from my early twenties. I had therapy, been in therapy for a long, long time. I definitely noticed issues with men growing up and intimacy and always feeling unsafe. So after loads of breakups and kind of having different boyfriends, I just knew something was going on. So I actually started seeing a male therapist because I thought to trust a man, I should probably get a male therapist as my first safe man. Started seeing my therapist in the August and met my partner in the September and I was like, this is meant SPEAKER_02: The therapies work. SPEAKER_05: Yes, and the first two years of therapy was really, really hard. And also I think your first healthy relationship can be really hard as well. So I was kind of learning how to be a partner, learning how to love, learning how to be loved. Got pregnant in March 2020. SPEAKER_02: And... So this, so actually that's right at the beginning of the pandemic, March 2020. Okay. SPEAKER_05: And then December 2020, I fell ill. I remember being downstairs in our living room, eating an ice lolly at like 5am. I was like, I think I've got COVID. Went to like a drive-through test centre, did a test. Next day, they took my vitals and was like, something's going on. and then they wrote down a piece of paper and said you need to go to hospital, like now. So I'm obviously crying my eyes out on the way to hospital, already had my bag packed because obviously I'm like a Virgo and everything's prepared. Hospital bag packed for me and baby. SPEAKER_02: How pregnant were you? 33 weeks. Wow. Yeah. So on the brink of having your baby. Yeah. Right. So you're admitted and you're in there for five days. Yeah. SPEAKER_05: And that five days, my test results come back, I get a text on my phone, I've got a Covid. I'm on oxygen. I'm in and out of life. I'm alive, I'm breathing, but I'm not all there. And I tell them, take my baby out. He has to come out. That's it, take him out. And they weren't going to take him out. I said, I just know in my gut, he's going to be fine. Just take him out. So went down for a C-section. Cypress came out. They put his head to mine. And I remember it was so small and warm. and they say it's going to go to the NICU. And then I hear my partner crying. Lee, my partner, he doesn't cry. He's crying in the toilet on the phone to his mum saying she's really unwell. They've mentioned the ICU. I remember saying bye to Lee at the doors. Doors closing. He then goes home. I'm in the ICU. And that's all I remember. I text my doula at the time. I said, I think I'm going to die. But I don't remember saying that. So I said, I think I'm going to die. I think something's seriously wrong with me. And then I gave a signature to be put into a coma because my lungs were working too hard and I needed to rest, obviously, to get better. And then that's it. And then I'm down in that coma for three months. So during that time, they tried to bring me around. Apparently I woke up and went absolutely mental, pulled my tubes out, was like punching nurses. Apparently that's a very normal reaction. And then they realised that I couldn't handle it. My oxygen levels went, so I had to go back under. And then They brought me round the second time and I was awake. I FaceTimed my family. I'm talking to them. And then my vitals went again. So I had to get put back under. For a third time? Yeah. And then the third time I got brought round, I went into cardiac arrest. So I had 10 members of staff bringing me back around. I was dead for five minutes. The biggest thing that shocked people was that I believe I saw an archangel. I saw a massive, massive, massive green figure and he was so big. He was black, he had dreadlocks and he said, you can't die. No matter how many times you die, I'm not letting you die. And he said, I'm going to fill you with my green light. And then I came back. SPEAKER_02: That is absolutely extraordinary. SPEAKER_05: There was like a nursery type rhyme playing, there was really peaceful music. And when I was awake in the ICU and like talking and healthy-ish, I heard the music and I was like, what is that? I heard that in my coma. And a lot of my nurses were Asian, like Filipino or Malaysian, and they said, oh, that's Chinese bamboo flute music. I played it to you in your coma. And I was like, I heard that. You heard it? SPEAKER_02: Yeah. God, I mean, It's so extraordinary. SPEAKER_05: My mental health was absolutely horrendous after I woke up. I had the psych team with me a lot and I said, in order for me to get better, I need to see my loved ones because this isn't normal. To be half dead and not be around people that make you feel safe, I can't function. Lee was allowed in, he was allowed in three times a week. It was like all my dreams had come true. When he came in, I just instantly felt like, okay, I'm going to be okay because the ICU is so depressing. You can't see any plants. The windows are frosted. So I didn't see the sky for five months, the sky. And yeah, it's just awful. So seeing him made me feel better. And then in the March, I think it was just after Mother's Day, I saw Cyprus for the first time. and we had to go to a special room because obviously Covid was still a thing and we needed to make sure that we were both safe so I was washed head to toe, saw him for an hour, bittersweet because I was like this is my child who's now going to be taken away from me again, like I was absolutely raging and that was a Sunday. The Monday I was so depressed I couldn't speak, I refused to see Lee, I was going through it and then on the Thursday I could breathe again. I think seeing Cyprus gave me, I was like, I need to get home for him. SPEAKER_02: So you knew that you could breathe. Yeah. Cyprus gave you that message, if you like, that I'm alive and I want to breathe and live for my child. Yes. That's absolutely extraordinary. They were your lifeblood of, I've got to be with these people. SPEAKER_05: In my coma dreams, my whole My whole dream was about getting back to my baby and Lee, which is what was happening in real life. SPEAKER_02: So they were your life force, your reason for being alive? Let me just come back round to Louise's dilemma, because there are some echoes within your story of what's going on for her. But Sam, let me ask you, obviously with Louise, she's finding it difficult to form healthy relationships, whereas I think with Grace, Lee and Cyprus were your reason and your family were your reason for living and rebonding. But obviously for Louise, it's tough. So why is it that trauma impedes our ability to form a healthy relationship, do you think? SPEAKER_03: Because lots of people, as I said earlier, become very numb. And so it's a way of protecting ourselves. We become numb, we become detached, and then trying to form relationships through that lens is very difficult. Because once we've been violated in that way, again, the brain does something to protect us. So we all form defenses. And we do this in everyday life, even if we haven't had such things happen to us. And those defenses are there for a reason. They're there to protect us. So it's the idea of being able to notice, what is my defense? What am I doing? And it's not always conscious. So the idea of if we're struggling with people or our interpersonal relationships, look to ourselves. And it's very difficult when we've been through something because on some levels it served us or it served her to keep her safe, to keep her protected. And so what we're asking Louise to do is to now look at that defence and crack it open a bit. SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and it goes against your natural instincts. Exactly. SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's difficult, isn't it? your subconscious mind is protecting you, it's keeping you away from forming healthy bonds, but you're saying you need to crack that open and you've got to allow yourself. I've been there. SPEAKER_05: I've been where Louise is. So I was raped when I was 16. So I met Lee when I was 29. He was my first safe male. I've been with sexual partners between 16 and Lee. but they were never safe. I was never really in the room when I was having sex with someone until I met Lee and that hit me like a ton of bricks. And he said to me, oh, I noticed that you're not very present when we're intimate. And I told him what happened and that opened all the floodgates. So I was dealing with that and therapy and you feel as if your world is coming crashing down. To be really honest with yourself and face the issues that you're having is really, really brave. But it's also difficult because when you have intimacy issues or issues with relationships, you can't heal them until you're in a relationship or until you meet someone you want to be intimate with because you can't do it on your own, all of it anyway. So I completely resonate with Louise because it is really, really hard to navigate. SPEAKER_02: So Louise's trauma happened 14 years ago. Sam, how does trauma affect a person over a long period of time? Is it possible to grow away from it or do we just grow with it? SPEAKER_03: I think we move through it. So I think It's like for most things, people are like, I just want to get over this. I just want to get over this. And I always say, can we move through it? It takes the pressure off. So we move somewhere and it's part of our journey, but it doesn't have to define us. It's not the journey. It's part of it, just like everything. And chronic trauma, if you're through going through something again and again, and you're not getting out of it, you can't heal from that. So we do have to be away from it to be able to heal from it. And I suppose what I hear when Grace talks is the idea of it's cognition and emotion. So when we're working through trauma, often people will come and tell you horrendous things, like they're reeling off a Tesco list. So then this happens, and then this happens, and then that happened, and that happened. And when we process it therapeutically, we need to feel it, which is really hard, because you're taking the client back to feeling it. And you have to do that to heal and process it. If you don't, it's two separate things. It's something in your memory and your mind and your feelings are protected. To process trauma, we need to feel it. We need to be in it. We need to think about it. And then we need to be able to think about the narrative, the story and the feelings in a different way. That's why we take you through the trauma so we can look back and we don't see it hopefully in the same way. You can reframe it. Exactly. SPEAKER_02: And I'm interested in this idea of not wishing to be defined by trauma. Does that ring true for you, Grace? Is it a case of, I don't want to be the girl that's sort of defined by, you know, I came through a COVID coma? SPEAKER_05: I was getting called a survivor a lot and My therapist said, surviving for you is just normal. It's nothing to you. You can survive again and again and again. I'm not surprised that you lived. Do you just know how to survive? You need to learn to live. I know how to survive, but I don't know how to live. I don't know how to be here in this moment and be okay with just the mundane life. to be on this earth and to be here, you need to actually be here and stop chasing the big moments. And when you have trauma, when you've survived something, when you know you need to heal, you concentrate a lot on that thing. So I've got a lack of intimacy, but actually get out and live. There's so much to be found in life. And you'll find that when you actually realize that there's magic in the mundane, it's the little things in life that intimacy is going to find you because you're out there and you're meeting people and you're seeing yourself and it does start with who you are and liking who you are and finding who you are and I think that life is about the moments that happen on a daily basis, getting a nice warm coffee, hearing the birds, the sun rises. These really mundane, boring things are what's going to make your life worth living. SPEAKER_02: And do you feel that you are now learning to live? SPEAKER_05: It's a journey. I think that I would be lying if I sat here and said, Oh yeah, like everything's amazing. You know, I've had a second child now and my career's great and money's not an issue. All of these things are good, are stable, but I still have chaos inside of me. Instead of storm that brews every now and then, I'm still processing my trauma. And I know that people, you know, may see my journey and and think, oh, like she's doing great and I am doing great, but there are days where I'm not doing so great and I'm kind of learning how to be me again. SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can completely understand that. And did you choose the name Victory or is that your given name? Everyone asks that. SPEAKER_05: No, that's my birth name, Grace Victory. I know. SPEAKER_02: It's extraordinary. I know. And you are indeed victorious. I mean, what a name. Okay. I want to leave Louise with some concrete advice. She wants to know how to process her trauma with the hope that she can start to form intimate relationships. So Sam, obviously this is your area of expertise. What would your advice be to Louise? I know we've touched on the fact that sometimes you've got to go back there. So what would you say to her? SPEAKER_03: I mean, I know it's not a pleasant thought, but I would say you have to go to therapy to process that because it's such a big thing that to try to do that alone or even talking to friends, it's very, very difficult. To be able to process trauma, you have to be in a safe space. with someone who knows what they're doing, who've done it before, who's not frightened of the trauma in a way. Because friends and family can be quite frightened of it and want to make you feel better, just be better. And actually to process trauma or stress or anything like that, you have to be able to safely get upset, to cry, to feel like you're going to fall apart and have someone be there to contain you, to contain it so you realise, I can contain it myself. So that's what we do in therapy. We model how we want it to be in the outside world. So if you can contain it, go through it, live through it in therapy and reframe it, then you can do it outside. So that's what I would say. To process it, we have to match cognition and emotion. We can't be numb to it. We have to engage with it, which is very painful. I always say to people in therapy, it's going to get harder before it gets better. You're not going to leave here feeling good every time. So expect that. It's part of the journey. but slowly, slowly you move through it. We move through to something different. So I'll say to people, you might not feel better, but you'll feel different. SPEAKER_05: You'll feel seen. Yeah. So I don't think I've ever left a session thinking, yeah, I can take on the world. I've always felt heard and seen. And sometimes what I found with my trauma is I haven't got the words to express what I'm feeling and a therapist often gives you the vocab and the name of it and you're like oh that makes sense and to just feel understood. SPEAKER_02: But ultimately you're pushing that person towards feeling okay now living life every day and that they can manage their emotions, they can manage and they've processed what's happened to them. Yeah. Yeah, it's very interesting. Grace, just finally, what would your advice to Louise be? SPEAKER_05: I think thinking back about my issues with intimacy, I had to start with me. I realised that I wasn't very intimate with myself. I don't mean like self-pleasure, that's also a thing, but I mean being able to look in the mirror, like actually look at myself, see myself, accept myself. I've carried a lot of shame throughout my life and a lot of anger, And I had to journal and I had to go on my own journey of like self-discovery to learn to like who I am. And that's a big thing. And not a lot of people like who they actually truly are. And I think intimacy with others starts with yourself. SPEAKER_02: That's a lovely, lovely bit of advice, actually, learning to accept who you are. And I love that and like who you are. I mean, does that ring true for you as well, Sam, that so many people just actually ultimately, they're not sure whether they are okay with themselves? SPEAKER_03: Definitely. I mean, it always starts with the self. I always say to people, always come back to yourself. And often they'll say to me, what do you mean? What do you mean? I don't understand what you mean when you say, because it is a bit of an abstract concept. What does that mean? Come back to you. What do I think? How do I feel? What are my thoughts? Not everybody else's. Who am I actually? And what do I think? It's so difficult. SPEAKER_05: But when you've had a fractured sense of self, you ain't got a clue who you are. what you think, what you believe. And I think, although it's so difficult and so painful, that's where the beauty is in the journey is actually, this is exciting to find who I really, really am and like, come home to me. I agree. SPEAKER_02: Louise. I really hope that you're listening to this and I hope that you found it helpful. If somebody does run a mile when you tell them that you're a virgin, then do you know what? They sure as hell are not good enough for you. Please do keep in touch and let us know how you're getting along. And if you're listening to this and something in the conversation has resonated with you as well, then please Let us know. We love nothing more than hearing from the listeners of this show. You can either leave me a voice note by visiting the podcast website, itcan'tjustbeme.co.uk, or you can email me at itcan'tjustbemeatpodemo.com. Now, girls, Grace and Sam, I am not finished with you yet, although I could talk about this all day with you both. I do have a couple of quickfire dilemmas that I need your help with. So are you ready? Yes, love that. Okay, this first one is from Ellie. SPEAKER_01: Hi Anna, one of my friends has just had a baby, she's quite young and it's been quite a hard time for her. I was hoping to get her a really nice gift, it's her birthday coming up as well and I want to get her something thoughtful, nice, but I don't have too much money to spend on it so I wondered if you had any suggestions on what I could get? SPEAKER_02: Thank you. I can see Grace nodding away there. Now, look, we know that you've got two little ones. What do you think this listener should do for their friend? SPEAKER_05: I think when someone has a baby, you often think about the baby and what to get the baby. And actually, the mum needs love. So I think either food, either a delivery voucher for coffee, a frozen meal. There's lots of brands that do really amazing nutritious postpartum meals like for the freezer because the lack of nutrients when you have a baby is wild because you struggle to feed yourself, you do. You've got no time. So either like a food voucher or something for her, postpartum massage, take her to get her nails done, a pedicure, something to kind of fill up her cup and remind her of who she is outside of you know, just being a new mum. Just being a new mum. SPEAKER_02: And Sam, I mean, you are a doting mother of two boys. What would you have liked to have received when you had your first very young baby? SPEAKER_03: I totally agree with Grace. It was sort of like people coming around with loads of stuff for the boys and I was thinking, I could do with some hand cream, you know, or just like anything. My foot is dry. Again, it's just anything where you feel like someone's thought of you, I think is so powerful, no matter how small it is. I just wanted something for myself, basically. SPEAKER_02: I can imagine that maybe as a mum, you just feel invisible and that you just disappear. I can absolutely imagine. SPEAKER_05: Or watch a baby for two hours and I can sleep. Yes! SPEAKER_03: God, I love that. Do you know what? SPEAKER_02: I was just going to say, I would have thought that the gift of sleep would just take my baby for a walk. SPEAKER_05: Long, hot bath. Oh my God, with Epsom bath salts. SPEAKER_02: Oh my God, this all just sounds marvellous. Now, our next dilemma is from someone who's a little further along in their parenting journey than Ellie's friend, so here goes. SPEAKER_00: Hi Anna, it's Ed from Bristol here. I need some parenting advice. I've got two young daughters And I'd like to know how much screen time you think is too much screen time. SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've just looked at Sam's face there, the sort of grimace. It's the dreaded question of screen time. Now, we know that excessive screen time in children and adolescents has been linked to higher rates of depression, anxiety and poor sleep. So, Grace, what is or what would your policy be with kids and screen time? SPEAKER_05: you're asking the wrong person because I don't know. I think screen time often plays the role of mum needs to cook dinner, mum needs to go for a wee, and that's how I use screen time is that to get anything done, if the kids are in the house, I've got to put on Moana or I've got to put on a dinosaur show. You've got to distract them. Got to distract them because otherwise they will be in that toilet with me and I just want to poo in peace. So I think there is a balance and I think intentional screen time is best than just putting it on constantly. So for me, I get the kids out daily. We have arts and crafts, we do drawing, we do dance parties, we do all the different things. And then there'll be parts of the day where the screen will have to go on because mummy needs to do something. So I try not to be judgy around screen time with other mums because you do what you need to do. For me I just try to be intentional with it and choose shows that don't annoy me because if it annoys me it's probably doing something horrendous to their brain. I try and make it like an educational-ish show but I'm not going to lie, sometimes Paw Patrol goes on. SPEAKER_02: Sam, for you, as a psychotherapist first, what would you say? And then as a mum, second, what would you say? SPEAKER_03: That's a hard one. I would say, I agree with Grace, be intentional about it. So if they're sat watching a show, they are sat watching. It's a thing to do. It isn't, we have the television on all of the time and it's sort of in the background and they're playing. If they're playing, they don't need the television on. So that idea of using it as, okay, you're sitting down now, we've got 10 minutes. I also say maybe put a timer on so you know as well as the parent you're thinking okay I've got 15 minutes or 20 minutes to do that and then once it's done I'm going to turn it off. In terms of our mental health we need to be healthy to look after our children. There's no point in spending all day with your child if you're screaming shouting stressed. It's better for them to have you there present if you need that time take the time but be intentional about it set a timer and feel like you're in control of it rather than it's there all the time. SPEAKER_02: I love that. So intentional screen time. Yeah. Okay. Well, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics, the recommended daily screen time for children is, if they're two and under, avoid, except video calls. If they're two to five, then one hour of active screen time. So active means using the screen to learn. And if they're six to 12, then no more than two hours a day. I mean, I'm looking at the pair of you just sort of like going, yeah. SPEAKER_05: It is hard and there's a lot of judgment, I think, around how people parent, especially mothers. But I also think you do things in phases. If you're a new mum, to a newborn, you've got a toddler, they're going to be watching more TV than usual because you physically can't tend to all of their needs when you've got a newborn. So the TV goes on. So I just think don't judge yourself and try and just get outside sometimes. I think that that massively helps. Just go for a walk and then five minutes turns into an hour. And you go, just go look at leaves or go and find blackberries on the trees. SPEAKER_02: Get them out into nature. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm also just going to throw one final thought at you about screen time, because interestingly, a study published in the BMC Journal of Public Health found that parents who limit their own screen time are more likely to successfully limit their children's screen time. It's interesting, isn't it? So, Ed, put the phone down. Grace, it has been an absolute joy having you with us for today's episode of It Can't Just Be Me. Thank you for responding so generously in terms of filling us in about your own story, but also with helping with Louise's dilemma. And of course, Sam Pernell's Encolo, where would we be without you? Thank you for doing so many years of research into post-traumatic stress so that we can siphon off your knowledge for this podcast. Thank you. I'll be back next week with a new episode of It Can't Just Be Me. And in the meantime, if you find yourself with a dilemma and you really need some advice, then drop me a voice note at itcan'tjustbeme.co.uk or you can email your dilemma to itcan'tjustbeme.co.uk. And if you can't get enough of the podcast, which, frankly, is understandable, then you can find us on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube and Facebook. Just search for It Can't Just Be Me, because whatever you're dealing with, I promise you, it really isn't just you. From Podimo and Mags, this has been It Can't Just Be Me, hosted by me, Anna Richardson. The producers are Laura Williams and Christy Calloway-Gale. The editor is Kik Nilsson, and the executive producers for Podimo are Jake Chudnow and Matt White. The executive producer for Mags is James Norman Fyfe. Don't forget to follow the show or for early access to episodes and to listen ad-free, subscribe to Podimo UK on Apple Podcasts.