Do I want Children? With Cici Coleman

Episode Transcript

Anna: Hello there. It's me, Anna Richardson, and you're listening to It Can't Just Be Me. In today's episode, we're dealing with a dilemma from a single 40-year-old woman who is child free by choice. She's sick and tired of people asking whether or not she has children and then that awkward silence when she tells them she doesn't. As a child-free woman in her fifties, this is something that I could talk about all day. So strap in. Welcome to It Can't Just Be Me.

Anna: Today, I'm joined by the simply stunning Cici Coleman, and if you're anything like me and love the TV series First Dates, then you'll know that Cici is the star waitress who keeps a close eye on all of the show's hopeful singletons. She's become a much loved character on the show and her friendships with the other members of staff have become something of a highlight. So much so that she's now joined forces with Frankie Bridge to co-host First Dates: The Podcast, which even features an episode about a couple who are brought together by the one and only Naked Attraction. I guess I should say here, you're welcome. At 37 years old, Cici is currently child-free by choice. So I knew that she'd have a lot to say about today's dilemma. Here she is, everyone. It's Cici Coleman. Cici Coleman, the UK's favorite, and dare I say it, most gorgeous waitress amongst many, many, many other talents. How are you?

Cici: Thank you. I'm really good. Thank you very much. I've just been to the gym. I'm on fire. How are you?

Anna: Well, do you know what? I've got a bit of a sore throat and I haven't been to the gym, but I'm still on fire.

Cici: Good.

Anna: And thank you so much for joining us today. It really is a pleasure to have you here in the studio, and now, as a child-free woman in her fifties, I have to say that I'm really interested to explore today's dilemma with you, which has come from a woman in her forties who is child-free by choice. So I think we're going to have quite a fascinating time unpacking this and there is so much to say, but before we get into that, I ask every guest on the show to bring in their very own it can't just be me dilemma. So what have you got for us, Cici?

Cici: It can't just be me that is the most indecisive person. However, I feel like I'm allowed to be that way, but when I meet a guy, it gives me the ick when he's that way too because then you've got two people that just can't make a decision.

Anna: Ghastly.

Cici: Yeah. And I feel like, is it just me that feels like it should be okay that I can be that way and he can't because I'm a hypocrite, I'm okay with that as well, or do other people feel the same?

Anna: What star sign are you?

Cici: Libra.

Anna: I knew you were going to say that. Me too. Well, it's a classics trait, being a Libra. So I'm a Libra too. I'm really indecisive and I look to my partner basically and everybody else around me to make all of the decisions so that I can just be absolved of any responsibility whatsoever, and it's really annoying, isn't it?

Cici: I'm not dating at the moment, but when I do, I look for that. So one of the things on my checklist in my head is like, can this man just make a decision, what to eat, where to eat?

Anna: I hear what you're saying. Look, I wholeheartedly approve of your it can't just be me dilemma. I am with you, and as far as I'm concerned, if anybody wants to go out with you or me, they have to make all the decisions, the end.

Cici: Thank you.

Anna: It can't be that hard, surely. Our dilemma today is from a woman who is child free by choice. So I'm delighted to say that we are also joined by our expert this week, Zoe Noble. Zoe is the founder of We are Childfree, a community that celebrates people leading child-free lives. She's also a photographer and created a portrait series showcasing people who are child free, which has been featured in the New York Times and The Guardian. We'll leave a link to that in the show notes. It's definitely worth a look. Zoe, thank you so much for being with us and welcome to It Can't Just Be Me.

Zoë: Thank you, Anna. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Anna: Do you also look to your partner to make all the decisions in life?

Zoë: Sadly, I totally relate. I am also very indecisive. He's a bit better than me, so at least we can get some things done if one of us is okay with making the decisions, but it's an affliction for sure.

Anna: Well, if you're ever open to a throttle, then I like a man who can make a decision. So I've got your address. I'll be on your doorstep later on. Okay, ladies, this dilemma has been emailed to us by a listener who wishes to remain anonymous. So we'll be referring to her as Jenny and I'll be reading this one out. Hi, Anna. It can't just be me who is tired of feeling the need to explain why I don't have children. I'm in my early forties and I'm a happily single woman without children. If I'm honest, I thought I wanted children until my friends started having them and then I realized that wasn't for me. Whenever I meet new people, one of the first things they ask is do you have children? When I reply saying that I don't, there's always a long pause, which makes me feel the need to explain why this is. I've recently started a new job and found this to be a recurring situation. I also feel that if I was a man, this wouldn't be an issue. Any advice on how to answer in the future? So ladies, as I mentioned at the start, I am a child-free woman in her early fifties. So this is something that I can absolutely 100% relate to. I feel as though when people ask me if I have children and I say, "No, I don't actually," I feel that they're really embarrassed and that they feel either sorry for me or they think there's something wrong with me or I just don't fit in to their gang, and then they just don't know what to do with me. So Cici, I'm going to come to you first. You are a 37-year-old single, currently child-free woman. Is Jenny's experience something that you can relate to?

Cici: So throughout my twenties, I always thought I wanted children because that's what I thought we should do. I then went on a date with the guy when I'd just turned 30, and there's that weird thing that happens when you turn 30 that we're like, "Ugh, what haven't I done in my life?" Went on this date and he was like a breath of fresh air. He said to me, I asked if he wanted kids and he said, "I just simply don't know," and I almost wanted to press him on it, but I thought I was so impressed by him being brave enough to say and own his response of, I just don't know. And I thought, I'm going to start using that and see how it fits around my palate. Does it sit with me well, and I was then dating after him and was asked this question and I just responded in the same way. I said I don't know. It really gave me a chance to figure out what I want because I was being so honest, and then I guess I went through a phase of having lots of friends have babies around the 33, 34 mark and just being handed them. Here's my blob, you have it, and I don't know, I wasn't very maternal, didn't really know even how to hold a baby, just a bit like, "Ugh, can I give it back?" And then it's only in the start the last year that I've started to think maybe I do want children. I still don't know, but I think I'm edging towards the yes mark. It's taken me a long time to get comfortable with that and I think there's a small fear in me that is scared to say yes, yes, just in case it doesn't happen. So I completely understand where this woman's coming from, but I think where I'm at that maybe just a little bit younger, I haven't felt the pressure yet to give that response or to, if I don't want it feel pressure, to have an answer.

Anna: So I want to take you through the decades as it were. So when you were a teenager, are you saying that you just weren't particularly maternal? You weren't into playing with dolls or the idea of having kids?

Cici: Definitely play with the dolls. Barbies were my best friends, but I was just young. Do you want children? Yes, I do. It was just the automatic response because-

Anna: Got you.

Cici: I'm from a small town and that's what you say.

Anna: And then in your twenties, because it was I'm going to get married and have kids because it was what was expected.

Cici: What was expected and I was in a long-term relationship. So I just, again, presumed the next step is we now live together. We should just probably have a child.

Anna: That I become a mom because that's what you do, and then in your thirties, which is where you are now, you've started to have a slight wobble towards the end of your thirties going, hang on a minute. Maybe I do.

Cici: Yeah.

Anna: And then the fear, that's so interesting because I did not think that at all when you were talking, that of course, the fear of suddenly going, well, what if I decide to have kids and I can't? Interesting. This is very interesting, Zoe, you founded We are Childfree, which is a community that champions people who are child free either by choice or circumstance. What inspired you to set it up?

Zoë: I was actually in a taxi with the taxi driver, and then he asked me the question, are you married, and I'm trying to be polite, so yes. Do you have children? No, and the taxi driver almost drove us off the road. He was so confused and when he said, "Why not," and I said, "We just don't want any." He, for the next 30 minutes, tried to convince me that I needed to have children, that I would be alone and sad and it was my purpose in life, that I would not like the first one, but by the second or third, I would love it. So from that moment on, I knew something had to change because I knew that I wanted to live my life authentically, but the rest of the world did not seem to agree with that, and that's when I thought as a photographer, I could tell our stories and hopefully show other people that they're not alone, maybe even show the world that child-free people are completely normal, but really, it was that taxi driver that just made me so frustrated and I reached a breaking point of doing something about it.

Anna: Do you know what, Zoe? I feel as though we may have had the same taxi driver because I had exactly this experience about a year ago when a guy picked me up and was taking me home and said, "So are you married?" "No, I'm not married, but yes, I'm in a relationship," and actually, at the time, I was in a gay relationship, which I didn't divulge, but he said, "Okay, so you're seeing somebody. Have you got any kids," and I went, "No, I don't have children." And the same thing. He said, "Well, why not? Why not," and I said, "Because I'm not sure that I really necessarily want them," and the same experience as you of this man driving me for the next 35 minutes telling me that, "Well, you are a woman and it's your role, it's your job. It would make you happy. You're going to be lonely if you don't do this." So I feel as though we've probably had the same cab driver there, Zoe, but just fill me in again, like Cici did, did you have that feeling that when I grow up, I'm going to have my own family and my own kids?

Zoë: It was never a part of my thinking, my vision for the future ever. Once I grew into my teens, I never thought I'm going to start thinking about names for children or I need to get married so I can have a child, and my family have been very supportive. So I never got questions or pushback. I got married quite young, so I got married at 21, and obviously, then the questions start to intensify because of course, you're married. The next step is having a child. What other reason would you get married for? So that's when I was faced with the questions and the judgment a lot more, which was quite lonely because we don't really have a lot of role models out there. And I knew no one else who was choosing to not have children. So in my thirties when I was about 36 and had the experience with the taxi driver and being a photographer, I thought, okay, you have to do something about this to help other women if you can and put a shout-out, basically, on my blog and not knowing if anyone else that truly was like me. I did not know if anyone else felt the way I did, and I got 40 people reply to that one post saying they would want their photo taken, they would want to share their story, and I knew, okay, I'm not alone, which was an incredible relief.

Anna: That is a relief, isn't it? Without question, I have lots of friends who do have children and do have families, but weirdly, a lot of my very close friends are child free and I think that maybe you do gravitate towards each other if you are women who've chosen not to have children or by circumstance, have not had kids. It's almost like a cabal of witches, but Cici, am I correct in thinking that you're currently single?

Cici: Yes. Yeah.

Anna: And how often does the question of children come up for you when you're dating?

Cici: It's interesting because listening to both of you, I think the pressure is a lot heavier because when you have a partner, the automatic next question is, so do you have children or when are you having children, and I haven't had that, but what I am finding is when I'm dating, that question comes up. So you're single. Yes, I am. Why are you single, and you think-

Anna: Here we go. Yeah.

Cici: So you're almost justifying where you're at in life and then the next question is, do you want children, and it's become difficult because as I said before, I was using that I don't know, and I was quite sure. I was a bit cocky, if anything, in my earlier thirties and I was okay with that response, but now, because I'm not sure and the fear part kicks in, it makes it harder to respond when you actually like someone you're on the date with. So you think, I don't want to change for you and I don't want to make my response fit your narrative, but I don't know, but I like you and it's very difficult.

Anna: That's a nightmare because if you really like the guy that you're dating and he's adamant that he doesn't want to have kids, then it's kind of like, do I change my response because I'm really into you?

Cici: I haven't met anyone yet that doesn't want kids. The guys I seem to meet are very strong in that. They're very family orientated. They all want children, they all want lots, and I'm sat there thinking, I just haven't made that decision entirely yet. Just give me a minute because in my head, I guess the boundary for me is I don't want to do it alone because I don't want children enough to bring a child up alone, so I need to see the guy and then once I've figured out, yes, this person's going to be around for a while, let's think about children.

Anna: I think so look, Jenny talks about an awkward silence when she shares that she doesn't have children. Why is it that we don't know how to interact with women who are child free by choice? So what would you say about that, Zoe? Why is it that we just feel so weird and awkward when a woman says, no, I haven't got kids and I don't want them?

Zoë: Because we're supposed to want children, and if we don't, it's a very taboo subject. We have the messaging sent to us from a very young age, women are having children and they will want children, and if they don't, there's something wrong with them. You mentioned witches earlier on. We can look back through history and see many examples of when women didn't fit that mold, they were going to be oppressed. They were going to be changed, forced. So it's still seen as something very taboo. We don't have those role models out there that can show people we are completely normal. This is just another path for a woman to choose, and that's why representation is so important and that's why I was so eager to create a project that could show many different ways of living, and if you don't have children, if you don't want them, that's just another way of living like having a child. So hopefully, it's changing, but I don't know about you guys, but I still rarely see a lot of positive examples of child-free women out in the world.

Anna: What do you think, Cici?

Cici: What I have found is this, the word body clock comes up a lot and it's not something that I don't think, if I think... I was living in Bali for five months last year, this question doesn't come up at all. Nobody talks about it. You are who you are. You're accepted for whatever you want to be. You walk around with your hair on the side of your head, half a flip-flop that's broken and no one even bats an eyelid, and I have never felt my most true authentic version of me other than being there. I came back to the UK and London in particular is so heavy with this. And I was asked, how was Bali? Great. Have you met anyone yet? No, I haven't. It was about me. The trip was for me. It wasn't about meeting somebody. Have you thought about your body clock? Never even heard that word or really understood what it meant, but I guess I should now, and then it was the question of are you going to freeze your eggs, and now I'm thinking, is it coming from me because I've got to that age? Well, am I actually thinking about it and I'm projecting it or is it coming from other people? I don't know anymore.

Anna: So Cici, you're 37.

Cici: 37, yeah.

Anna: Zoe, how old are you?

Zoë: I'm 41.

Anna: You're 41. I'm 52. So from my perspective, this is my experience is that I never wanted kids when I was little. I didn't see myself as having children when I was little. I was fiercely independent and I really felt that way very strongly going through my twenties and my thirties, but part of that was informed by the fact that I had a very traumatic ectopic pregnancy when I was 21, which nearly killed me. So literally, I view pregnancy as death, but something weird happens that when you do go into menopause, and I'm looking at both of you here, when you do go into menopause, there's that very weird slamming into a wall that you suddenly hit where all your eggs have shriveled up and dropped off and you go, "Hang on a minute. I can't do this anymore. Even if I wanted to, the choice has been taken from me," and now in my early fifties, I do fear a little bit that, well, I haven't got my family and the choice has been removed. So suddenly, I am thinking about, well, I think maybe I should adopt because I'd quite like to have my own little gang around me. In a sense, I guess I'm saying that at the moment, I'm child-free through circumstance as well as choice, but that actually, I'm on that journey of possibly reversing that decision and maybe there's something around by choice, not having children biologically, but looking at creating a little family of non-biological kids.

Cici: I find that really fascinating because I think as humans, when we are forced to make a decision, like I was saying, I'm indecisive. Get me on an urgent day. Get me on a day where I am in desperation mode, when the shit has hit the fan, I will make a decision. If someone says to me, yes or no, do you want children, I'm sure I could give a very strong answer to that, whereas now, with my lovely little life where I feel like I have choice, it's almost like it doesn't matter as much because there's no urgency and sometimes when we're forced to a state of urgency, we can just make those decisions.

Anna: And what about you because Zoe, you're 41. Do you worry that actually when you do hit menopause and the choice has been taken from you, that biology might kick in?

Zoë: So I've actually, I've had a hysterectomy, which was because I had fibroids, and I did a lot of research about fibroids, about a hysterectomy, and basically knew because I didn't want children and where the fibroids were, that it would be actually in my best interest to have a hysterectomy that would just remove the fibroids. They would never come back, but when I asked my doctor about that, she told me flatly, "We are not going to discuss that. We're not going to talk about a hysterectomy." And I was incredibly confused and didn't realize why I was being shut down, but we can be dismissed a lot of the time and it actually came to an emergency and I was rushed to hospital, and my surgeon, thankfully, was not prioritizing my fertility. They asked me if I wanted kids and I said no and they said the best thing would be a hysterectomy, so I got it and my life changed forever in the most positive way possible, and I honestly didn't feel anything other than joy at getting my life back. So that probably outweighed the concern and the worry I might have had or experienced because many people do go through a grieving process.

Anna: That's an extraordinary story, Zoe, and thank you for sharing that because I was totally unaware of the fact that you've had a hysterectomy, but for you, you felt relief.

Zoë: Absolute, utter relief, and many, many women in our community say exactly the same thing because they've had a life filled with pain and when you finally are allowed to have an operation or a procedure that gives you back your autonomy and your quality of life, it feels like a second chance at life.

Anna: I can really identify with what you're saying there. You've taken me down a whole thought rabbit hole here because my experience when I look back as being a young woman and having had the ectopic pregnancy and various other gynecological issues, it was just a pure sense of relief when I came out of theater just thinking, Christ, I never want to go through that again. I hear what you're saying there, Zoe, and this is obviously very, very different for you, Cici, because you've never experienced presumably that kind of difficulty with periods or pregnancies or anything like that.

Cici: No, I honestly never really thought it is such an age thing and it's just the part you can't plan. It's never really been in my life until I hit 36 and it's this year that I'm now having these, now I need to find a man because I think I might want to do this. I'm not sure, and the not sure part is purely fear, that it's almost like I have a split head, but I think I'm entertaining it more so now.

Anna: What is the fear?

Cici: In case I say yes. So if I say yes, I want children, and then I don't have it and then I feel like I'm going to be let down. So if I just play this card of not sure, then I will never be let down.

Anna: And let down by your own body, let down by your partner? Who are you let down by?

Cici: Me. It's all me. Yeah. If I set myself up for this expectation that I'm going to have children, I'm going to find this lovely man and it doesn't happen, I don't want to feel gutted.

Anna: Out of interest, you'll often hear people say to a woman who's chosen not to have children that you'll change your mind or you'll regret it if you don't. Zoe, what is your response to that when people say, "Well, you're going to regret it?"

Zoë: I simply say, I know myself better than anyone else and that's the truth. That is really the truth, and it's taken a while to be able to get to a place where I can say that, but now, that's what I say and you can't really come back to that, can you, because I don't need anyone else's opinion on this. This is my body and my life. We're conditioned to take other people's comfort over our own and now, the great thing about getting older, I don't know about you guys, I care less and less about that. I care more about myself and making sure that I am looked after and that I matter.

Anna: Well, I was just going to ask you, what is the crux of this? Why is it that currently, we are child-free? What is that decision about, do you think? Is it about a woman saying, actually, I put myself first, my life first, and I matter over sacrifice and having... Is that what we're saying here, Zoe?

Zoë: I think it's definitely a big part of it. I think society doesn't like it when women choose themselves. So a child-free woman is still something to be scared about and we get the messaging from a very young age that our body belongs to everyone else and we don't get a say in a lot of things, and we have to unravel all of that and recognize that we matter and we get to decide, and I think you're right, Anna. I think it comes down to a lot of believing in ourselves and the self-worth that we matter.

Anna: Okay. So I really want to leave Jenny with some useful tips from today. At the end of her dilemma, she asks for advice on how she should respond to the question, do you have children? So Cici, what would your advice be for Jenny?

Cici: I think number one is try not to fill in the blanks for other people. It's on them, it's their stuff, it's their insecurity and a lack of understanding. So I personally would leave the full stop at the end. I don't want children, full stop, and just let it happen. Let it roll out however it needs to because nothing's going to change whatever we say. It might sound a little bit ridiculous, but do it in the mirror, try out what feels good for you, and then she might find a response. It might be a tweak in the wording that just feels a little bit easier and it just flows a little bit nicer.

Anna: That's really interesting. So practice it first in the mirror and just say, actually, no, I don't have children and I feel really comfortable with that and that's my life choice and I'm okay.

Cici: Maybe not even that because that again, it's justifying, isn't it? You've just made that choice, full stop.

Anna: And Zoe, do you have anything to add to that?

Zoë: Cici gave great advice there. Set boundaries, get comfortable with making other people feel uncomfortable. You can't control anyone else's reaction, their behavior. All you can do is put yourself out there and whatever they will do or say is on them. That is not on your shoulders. It's not your burden to bear. You can practice saying, I'm child-free by choice. You can say, I'm not comfortable talking to you about this. This is a very personal thing. You can walk away. So there are many different ways that you can react, but getting strong in who you are and recognizing, like Cici said, you don't need to justify your decision or life choices to anyone.

Anna: And just to flip this around finally, what is the best way for us to respond to a woman who says, no, I don't have kids? How should we avoid that uncomfortable silence?

Zoë: For me, I would always just be okay because I recognize, especially through doing the We are Childfree project, there is a whole host of reasons why people come to a place of not having children. I know it's not on me to try and delve into someone's personal experiences. If they want to talk, they will talk to me and I can leave that open to them by just saying, okay. It's important to build bridges between parents and non-parents. So it's almost the less intrusive we can be with each other and just be open and empathetic to each other, the better.

Anna: Cici, Zoe, thank you so much for your expertise and your honesty today. I have to say this has been both an empowering and informative conversation. I know that your advice will be welcomed by so many people listening in today. So thank you to you both. However, I'm not quite done with you both yet because I have a couple of quickfire dilemmas that I would really like your view on. So are you ready, girls?

Cici: Yes.

Zoë: Yes.

Anna: So this first one actually is in a very similar vein to the discussion that we've just been having. It's from Maria.

Speaker 5: Hello. So I met my boyfriend online just over a year ago because he's a bit older than me. He's 36 and I'm 25. When we first started dating, within a couple of months, we established I, at some point in the future, really want children and he doesn't. He's about 95% sure that he doesn't want children. I'm about 95% sure that I do want children, and at the start of the relationship, we just ignored that. It didn't feel like a big deal because I know it's something I want in the future, but not for quite a long time. But now a year down the line, I feel like I'm becoming very emotionally invested in this relationship and I'm starting to worry that I and he, we're both wasting our time a bit. So my dilemma is really, do I ignore that fact and focus on the fact that right now in this moment, we both are on the same page and we both want the same thing because like I say, it's not something that I want for quite a long time, or do we break up based on that we might not want the same things in the future? I'm finding it really difficult because every other part of this relationship is really good. It's the best relationship I've ever been in. I would really appreciate any advice you have.

Anna: So this is an interesting one. Cici, what would your advice for Maria be?

Cici: Is it an non-negotiable? It's working out is it an non-negotiable. If it is, then you've got a decision to make. I love that they were both very honest at the start. I think that's great. He was clear, I don't want children. She was clear, I do, but they still went for it anyway and sometimes she's 25, we don't always know what we want at 25, so we do roll with it, but if she's adamant that she wants children, then I don't see how it's going to work. She's only going to resent him in the future.

Anna: This is it. Zoe, what do you think?

Zoë: Yeah. Sadly, we get a lot of people in our community who are dealing with this in their thirties. They pushed through with relationships that they weren't sure whether they were on the same page, and sadly, they're dealing with the consequences of that in their thirties. Women have a fertility window. So if you are adamant that you want children, you have to listen to that voice and that means that if you're on different paths, it's not going to work. If you were both maybe not sure, then you can navigate that together, but you are basically on different paths and you have to be very open and honest. So sit down, talk to each other and talk about what your future, what you envisage for your future, and if you don't align, that is a big problem.

Anna: Thank you for that, Zoe. Now, the next dilemma is right up your street, Cici, because you are the co-host of the First Dates podcast. I love that, and also the star waitress of the hit TV show First Dates, best series in the world other than Naked Attraction, obs. It would be rude to let you go without putting at least one dating dilemma to you, and I have to say it's a juicy one.

Cici: Oh, bring it on.

Anna: And it's from Brad.

Speaker 6: Hi, Anna. So I'm looking for some advice on a situation I find myself in at the moment. There's a girl that I live with and we've been sleeping together for the past few weeks, but she has a boyfriend and I would like to know if I'm doing anything morally wrong in this situation, and also, she's hinted at wanting to be with me and not her boyfriend, and I would like to know if this did happen and me and her were in a relationship, should I be worried about this behavior she's showing towards her current boyfriend as in the lying and the cheating? Thank you.

Anna: Oh God, I've got so much to say about this. Now look, you don't have to answer this question, but have either of you been in Brad's situation? In other words, sleeping with somebody that's already been or is already in a relationship with somebody else?

Cici: Yes.

Anna: I love you for that, Cici. Zoe?

Zoë: No, I got together with my husband too young to have all of that fun, scandalous stories, so no.

Anna: Oh my God. Okay. So back in the day, back in the day, I've been round the block and back in the day, I'm afraid that I've also been in Brad's situation. So Cici, give me your knee-jerk reaction to Brad's dilemma.

Cici: His question of is this morally wrong, Brad, come on. It's definitely wrong. I wouldn't even be thinking that far ahead of is she going to do this to me later down the line if we get together. It is very, very messy, and if she clearly ends it with her partner and invites you into something together and you can grow, brilliant, but until that happens, exit because it will just get messy. She is eating her cake right now. She's loving her life. She's got a boyfriend coming around, she's got Brad when she needs him. It's actually, she's in a really nice position, but Brad's going to get hurt because there's a small part that I think Brad, he caress. I can hear it in his voice.

Anna: He does, doesn't he? He likes her.

Cici: He likes her.

Anna: What are you saying, Zoe?

Zoë: Yeah. If you have to ask if it's morally okay, then you know it's not. You know it's definitely not. So while it's not his responsibility, he has to encourage her to come clean with her boyfriend because you're right, Cici. It's just going to get so messy and you don't want to be involved with that, no.

Anna: My feeling about this is, like you girls have just said, of course. Brad, what are you? Of course, it's morally wrong. It is wrong. Look, we've all done it. It's wrong, and with the benefit of being the age that I am and looking back, I can see that it's messy. It never comes out well. So yes, I can hear that you like this girl, Brad, but do you know what? Step back and say this isn't going to carry on until you've actually finished with your boyfriend because it's got to be clean. Everybody gets hurt otherwise. Wow. Cici Coleman, it has been an absolute joy to have you on It Can't just Be Me. Thank you for coming onto the show and for being such an open, honest book. I really do appreciate that, and of course, Zoe Noble, thank you too for joining us and bringing your child-free positivity and all of your wisdom to It Can't Just Be Me. We'll, of course, leave a link to We are Childfree in the show notes. In the meantime, we're actually going to be taking a bit of a break over the next few weeks, but fear not because we'll be back and ready to tackle all of your dilemmas after the summer. So please keep sending me your voice notes and emails so that I've got juicy problems to get my teeth into once we're back. You can leave me a voice note at itcantjustbeme.co.uk or you can email itcantjustbeme@podimo.com. Remember, nothing's off limits and whatever you're dealing with, it really isn't just you. From Podimo and Mags, this has been It Can't Just Be Me hosted by me, Anna Richardson. The producer is Alice Homewood with support from Laura Williams. The executive producer for Mags Creative is James Norman-Fyfe. The executive producers for Podimo are Jake Chudnow and Matt White. Don't forget to follow the show or for early access to episodes and to listen ad free, subscribe to Podimo UK on Apple Podcasts.